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Pathfinder fan, who wasn’t asked, trying to explain to me how adding 3000 other things to worry about makes pathfinder a superior system:
EDIT: I don’t personally have anything against pathfinder, or any other system, the point is how absurd y’all sound when trying to force a system you like on someone else, when most likely they neither care nor want to find something new. Because if they did, they would have asked.
There’s a lot of people coming from a lot of different places and maybe you’ve spent 15-20+ years and are ready to, or already have, tried different things. But if someone came to you when you didn’t even have a year under your belt and tried to drop all those different things you’ve tried over that time, at once, you’d tell them to go pound sand too.
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5e is definitely more beginners friendly.
But does get boring real fast.
5e is way simpler. You can make a character and explain what’s on a character sheet much faster and easier. Teaching new players 5e is so much easier.
PF is less complex and complicated than 3.5, but not nearly as simple as 5e.
I really loved all my Pathfinder games, but 5e is just easier all around to run.
Granted, if you have veteran players who know the mechanics and rules, PF is really fun. But for new players, 5e is much easier.
If you’re having fun that’s what is most important but it’s like 40 pages of rules that explains almost everything you need to know in black and white. If you ran it for 8 months you might spend a bit more in the beginning going ‘oh, let me look that up.’ (and actually finding concrete answers) and you’d be running the game probably a lot smoother than you are currently. all of the rules are online so you can check anything in an instant.
LoL, “D&D won’t tell me how to talk to people! The system is inferior because they won’t give me an individual, bespoke mechanic for each conversation! Persuasion should require 40+ dice rolls, MINIMUM…”
The actual mechanical complexity of Pathfinder is largely exaggerated.
It’s still a fairly linear progression. Pick a race, a class, and a background. Roll a d20, add bonuses, tally end result.
All the complexity and options come in the form of feats, which admittedly, there are a lot of, but even then, it’s all still self-contained with race/class progression.
Even multiclassing is handled via feats.
It looks a lot more complicated than it actually is because of the sheer volume of options, but actually implementing those options is pretty straightforward.
A counter argument, if you will…
Learning pathfinder 2e didn’t take me that long, even before I had hero lab online. I do prefer simpler systems nowadays tho
*laughs in T.H.A.C.O.*
If you would ever like a hand with understanding any systems, I’d gladly lend some time toward that. If I’m not familiar with the game I’d learn it with you. It can be a challenge to learn your first tabletop. After the first few, though, you get an idea of what to look for. Like building your first character.
At least once in our Pathfinder sessions one of us calls it “f’in Mathfinder” and we all laugh and pull out the Core rulebook again…
mathfinder is fun
If you want a simple alternative, have I got the system for you…
https://writingalchemy.net/resources/lasers-and-feelings-hacks/
Because 5e takes anything remotely limiting player power and just gets rid of it.
Forcing anything on players (see OGL1.1) never works out. Play what you like and you don’t owe anyone an explanation
Pathfinder would take you 8 hours to learn because it’s not a halfmade system reliant on handwave-ium
Cool story
I think there are people who think that 5e is too simple, and there are people who think that 3.5/PF1e is too complicated.
I lean toward the complication because it makes the game feel more crunchy and detailed, but I *completely* understand feeling like it’s all a bit too much.
If I had a new player in PF1e, I’d just encourage them to pick a simpler class and walk them through it. I don’t think it’s that painful once you’re used to it.
And then getting mad when you say no thanks.
PF1 was litterally considered as a D&D3.75
D&D5 has brought a much better and more fluid gameplay and degreased the mammoth by removing/regrouping tons of useless individual options and restricted the choices to fit in a page.
PF2 has grown from PF1 with more balance, a simpler action economy but still bear the weights of sub-rules about everything and endless lists of options.
To summarize, if the role-playing game is a LEGO construction game,
– the “bricks” of character building in D&D5 are bigger with less shapes and different colors, but well identifiable and allow to build something very quickly.
– the ones in PF2 are much smaller, conditional, numerous, messy and require hours and hours of digging, comparing and assembling to achieve a satisfactory result.
I’ve been a long time fan of PF1 but since D&D5 is here, il don’t want to spend all my time anymore on filling statblock, il prefer using my time filling scenarios, personnalities, descriptions … So i prefer D&D5
Mathfinder.
As much as I love Pathfinder as a business it is too close to DND to keep me interested
Hardcore game… always the same, doesn’t matter what the subject is
Oof, that’s a spicy take!
I learned on 3.5 and while its a lot of fun I do enjoy 5th for the simplicity of it as I don’t have a group that are committed to the game the same way I am and 5th is easier for them to pick up and play. That being said I don’t like people talking smack about any system every one I’ve played has it’s pluses and minuses.
Tbh I’ve never played anything other than 3.5 and 4. Didn’t like 4.
My first year or so of games with systems, I’d been running systemless adventures for about two years before that, involved me being exposed to as many rulesets as possible.. Call of Cthulhu, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, Palladium through Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Heroes Unlimited, Runequest, FASA’s Star Trek, and, of course, Dungeon and Dragons (Red Box).. oh, and GURPS.. I could not get enough of them, the more the better, I absorbed it all.. I was only 13-15 at the time, and not set in my ways, but because I started like this, I still comfortably go from system to system, and I am always open to new systems when recommended by friends.. in the last 12months I have used four different rule sets.. Palladium/ Beyond the Supernatural, Vampire the Masquerade, Cubicle 7s Doctor Who, and, of course, 5e..
One of the biggest hurdles to other RPGs getting tried out are the people who won’t shut up about how much *better* they are.
Uh, but nobody asked for your opinion here either? I mean that’s the only issue right? That someone told you why they prefer Pathfinder over 5e without asking? Now here you are telling us all about how you don’t want to hear about anything else without anyone asking. And here I am answering without anyone asking. Oh God it’s almost like a horrible cycle has started where people speak their opinions to each other without directly being asked. What is that called….oh yeah, a conversation. I forgot.
I think that’s one of the reasons Pathfinder is more popular for “hardcore gamers” and D&D has higher audience, you see that in the video games industry.
Overwatch, even at it’s peak, could not establish a very popular tournament audience… While CS GO pretty much does it without effort.
For newcomers and other that don’t know the hobby, D&D 5e is simply easier and more comfortable than Pathfinder
Same reason why people prefer Apple over anything else – simple interface that doesn’t make you think too hard.
I just picked up FATE Accelerated, and it’s my new favorite, so simple and quick, yet flexible. Oh, and the fluff and crunch blend perfectly!
Man…some of that anti-pathfinder diatribe is getting a little dusty. The 2nd ed for PF is a LOT more streamlined …they took lessons from 5Es simplicity and speed. (Of course, they also moved back from the OGL content that might have put them at risk…which turns out to have been a smart call.) I was much more vested in 5E, but I have zero Pathfinder hostility. I can appreciate really liking a particular game, but I can’t quite imagine what it must be like to be an absolutist with “its THIS or NOTHING!” mentality.
This is why I’m getting turned off to all TTRPG. There is an elitist gate keeping feel to every discussion. I joined this group to talk about DND and get ideas. All it is is did you see what WOTC is doing with the license. Dur dur dur pathfinder. I’m not into business so I don’t give 2 shits or a fuck what corporations are doing to other people making games. Yet here we are every day going on an on about being mad that one corporation is mad at another and trying to make fans mad to get the fans to buy their stuff.
I loved PF 1e, it FELT like D&D to me (I mean it was really D&D 3.75).
I was excited about PF2e.
Hated it.
Just too much crunch for me. I like simple, streamlined and smooth and 5e fits that perfectly.
I wouldn’t worry about it, OP. Both 3.x and PF aren’t to everyone’s taste and they aren’t the greatest things since sliced bread, despite what their proponents say. To those who like it: if you like it, cool, but no need to evangelize about it.
Besides that, those systems have some very serious baked in flaws that are really hard to avoid without a lot of modding/houserules, and both require an intense level of system mastery to run properly, especially past the lower levels, which for me at least, wasn’t worth the effort that I could be spending on other aspects of the game.
I would never try to force anyone to change systems but since my early days playing AD&D in 1980 I’ve always enjoyed hearing from people who run and enjoy other games. You don’t have to change but be receptive to the different ideas and keep in mind that anything you do like can be homebrewed into your game if and when you like.
On the other hand for me something that takes “8 months of trial and error” to have a “good working knowledge” of means it’s crazy hard and complicated. And of course many people have tried to “force” D&D 5e on me (I assume in the same sense that you’re using the word, no physical force was luckily involved).
I do have some experience with Pathfinder and the added complexity serves a role in that it adds some tactical depth. This is an aspect that people enjoy to various degrees, doesn’t really depend how much experience you have with TTRPGs. I myself can enjoy a bit of it, but I can do without and will take simple rules any day. The problem is D&D5 still has fairly complex rules, but very little tactical depth, so combat tends to be relatively long and boring.
The complexity of Pathfinder doesn’t bother me as much as the Pathfinder fans who use the complexity as a reason to be insufferable snobs.
The problem is that D&D can become a bit like “training wheels”. It’s comfortable, and you’re used to it, so you dont want to branch out, even if it’s to a system you might like more. People begin to define themselves by their system and get offended if you suggest they try something else. I swear, the mouth-foaming anger I’ve seen from some 5e players at the mere mention of “have you ever tried 3.5/pathfinder/whitewolf/etc?” is astounding.
1) Once you understand 1 system that is D20 based others become easier even if there are some major changeds.
2) Finding what you like means taking some chances outside of the box, but if we’re talking gaming even going outside the comfort zone, if it’s with good people is still fun.
3) I personally generally like Pathfinder better than D&D, and if you follow the character creation process in the book in order of the pages and writing it’s an easy walk. It only gets strange or confusing if you flip around looking for answers before you even have clear questions.
4) D&D Is getting outdated and Hasbro is killing it. It may be better for new and old players to try other systems. There are so many, and the real gatekeeping is trying to get people to play D&D instead of exposing them to all the different TTRPG possibilities.
if it takes you “8 months of hard trial and error” when 5e is one of the least complicated rulesets on the market, you’re better off not exploring and staying with a particular ruleset. Depth may not be your thing.
this is the easiest game to learn, and incredibly easy to DM if you play the game the way that the developers intended you to. If you want to have a shop that sells magic items, however, you’re a bit fucked just using the DMG and PHB.
i’ve only played 3.5e, because my group plays that
but we’ve been consistently meeting weekly for the past 5 years (and them decades before I was invited), so I feel comfortable not branching out as there’s no need to
Uh, not really. I have learned dozens of different rpgs. I like learning new things. I feel like someone really hurt you XD.
Not even a month after playing D&D for the first time, I was learning to play Traveler, and Star Trek Adventures….
Sounds like you are just angry that it takes you so long to understand things, and hate having many different option available.
It is superior, and to cut it short.:
•Progressive character options
•You can grab skills that aren’t your class skills without speciwl things
•Spells are powerful
•By rules, multiclassing doesn’t stop you ftom feats/ASIs
•Abilities aren’t so horribly broken to break the game, with things as written
•Helping each other provides plusses, which can actually encourage teamwork
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